One needs to explain to me, what is my interest in doing illegal surgeries or fabricating or manipulating data. I should be a foolish Our producer, Johan Bronstad, got a tip that four doctors at Karolinska had made a report, a very solid one, about shortcomings in Paolo Macchiarini’s articles. And they’ve been working with the patients and searching for a solution to their very bad conditions. So they were looking into his articles to see is there a solution to his patient’s condition? But what they saw in the articles was a picture that didn’t at all reflect reality. The allegations in this report were very very serious and for us it was interesting immediately, because if this was true how could it have happened at the Karolinska Institute and Hospital which is home for the Nobel Prize. Our director Bosse Lindquist reached out for Macchiarini and quite soon he got an interview with him. And it was clear that his view of this was completely different to the doctors and also that Karolinska had his back. So there was the start really and during the first month an external investigator was set to look into this material and look into all the data, all the medical records to see whether Paolo was guilty or not of scientific misconduct and he found Macchiarini guilty. But since we have a system where the University have the last call in these kind of matters. It was their decision to make. We had been working with this project for half a year. Of course we didn’t know as much as we do now. But we did know enough to be quite sure that they would go with a external investigator. But they exonerated him. And we were all quite shocked I mean first of all it was challenging just to understand his whole new field of regenerative medicine. So we spent a lot of time just digging into this field and understanding it. But then the most challenging part. scientifically was I think to verify whether Paolo’s methods worked or not and also if his articles reflected reality or not. And to do that we had experts to help in several meters and a big database of medical records and also huge Excel documents where we put in every statement from medical records, interviews everything that we could find. And thanks to this Excel document we could show that Paolo and his team was falsifying data with the first plastic patient. So one week after and two month by month eight month and one year post operation. So he could show that he actually falsified data in all these. It was both. I mean sometimes it was for example, in one of the articles it says no fungus But it was fungus, if you look at the medical records. But it was also just telling that airway wouldl look normal when it clearly wasn’t when he was breathing like in a small small hole like this. It was both. Yeah, we were surprised that he was so cooperative since he said no to basically everyone else. this year during this investigation. Still he was cooperative within his own frames. It was always on his terms. We spoke about challenges. That was one of the big challenges as well to keep the contact with him and to keep the relationship going, because we in the beginning and Bosse had had his contact with him and during the autumn I took over the primary contact with Macchiarini and for us it was crucial to have that relationship to him because we wanted to understand his methods, his works his ideas, and also his person to be able to understand better his actions as well. It took a lot of time and effort and he dropped out several times and stuff. So it was good to be to help help each other with that. Yes, I mean in the beginning we were anxious that this this subject would be too complex for the broad audience. So we made a lot of effort to make it easier and more understandable. And when the first episode was broadcasted it was kind of quiet after the third episode was broadcast the media exploded. The first time Karolinska was really in denial. But after some time the vice-chancellor resigned and people in the Noble Committee stepped down as well. But no we didn’t expect that much attention. I mean even today we can read about Macchiarini and his team at Karolinska working with him and stuff. And the latest is that he got a new professorship in Russia. So he’s still working and going strong.